Sarah Campbell: All About Windows for Design Nerds

Austin Tunnell

There's a lot of emphasis on energy efficiency and there's a lot of emphasis on quality products. I often scratch my head when windows tend to be the first thing that get value engineered out of these homes. I think we're seeing a little shift in that American-made craftsmanship coming back into our homes.

Austin Tunnell

Welcome to the Building Culture podcast, where we explore holistic solutions to crafting a more beautiful, resilient and thriving world through the built environment. I'm your host, Austin Tennell. I interview leading change makers, architects, developers, builders, engineers, entrepreneurs, inventors and more. I also share my own journey as the founder of Building Culture as we grow a holistic real estate development company from the ground up. Together, we can explore a new vision for city building in the 21st century. one that puts people at the center. If you enjoyed this podcast or find value in what we're doing, please leave a five-star review, share it with your friends, and drop us a note. Thanks for listening. I want to take a moment to thank the sponsors of our podcast, Sierra Pacific Windows. They are a national window and door manufacturer, some really high-quality windows and doors. We use them regularly in our building culture projects. So if you've got a renovation or new construction, I highly recommend you talk to your local distributor and check them out. Also, OneSource windows and doors. doesn't just matter the manufacturer, it matters who you're buying your windows from. And if you're in the state of Oklahoma, OneSource windows and doors, they've got a showroom in Oklahoma City and in Tulsa, and they service the entire state. We work with them regularly to purchase our Sierra Pacific windows. So if you're in the state of Oklahoma, check them out. Sierra Pacific Windows and one source of Windows and Doors if you're in the state of Oklahoma. Sarah, welcome to the podcast. I'm glad to have you on today. Hey Austin, great to see you. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, we can dive a little bit nerdy, I think, into Windows today. So for just heads up for anyone listening. Might be a little bit more technical episode, but also some historic stuff. So if you're a builder or an architect or a developer or a homeowner going through renovation, could be pretty relevant. And windows are actually pretty fun. I get nerdy about them myself. But before we dive in, Sarah, could you just give a little bit of background about what you do? Sure. Thanks for asking. So my name's Sarah Campbell. I'm the architectural consultant for Sear Pacific Windows in the Pacific Northwest and a self

Austin Tunnell

proclaimed window nerd. So we're all in good company if we're looking to nerd out today. My background is not in windows, it's in exercise physiology, but over the past eight years of living in the Pacific Northwest, I've gravitated towards building materials and my focus has been on windows and doors and somehow some way I've fallen in love with the art of windows and doors. So here we are. Yeah, that is an interesting story. then to boot you're in a band and a drummer in a band on top of that. So, correct. I love it. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I've been playing music probably much my entire life. I've been in and out of bands professionally and I've got a great one out of the Seattle market here. So it keeps me busy. Very cool. Well, to start off, I'm actually going to talk a little bit about like my favorite windows that we use and why I like them. I personally really love casement windows. And so anyone listening double hung windows or, the ones that typically you see you slide up or down. The casement windows actually like open out and the whole window kind of opens and I really like them because I don't know, they almost have like a more modern feel to them because you don't have that big bar in middle. I really like that. active like opening up the whole window. I love that this screen is inside and it gets less dirty. I love that you can take the screen off and throw them in a closet if you're not going to use them, if you don't have flies or anything like that. I also hear they get a better seal. I'm curious if you agree with that. Also, you know, we usually at Build and Culture, we're using aluminum clad windows. Sometimes we might use a vinyl window or composite window, but we're using aluminum clad windows, which I like because of just kind of the inherent durability of that really, really low maintenance. And then some of the stuff that I look for when we're choosing windows are I really want something I'm kind of picky about the details. And so I want the frame to feel narrow. I don't want it to feel too bulky. And my favorite profile and like a mutton pattern, and we almost always do muttons. We rarely have just kind of clear glass with no dividers, no muttons. And we

Austin Tunnell

My favorite is the 5H putty profile. And that is a really actually hard profile to get an entry level aluminum clad windows. And so that's actually one of the main reasons why our like H3 casement window is our go-to window because we can get it in like 27 colors, which is, whatever it is, I don't know exactly. It's a bunch of colors. And a lot of times you only have a few options to choose from. And then that 5H putty profile, it's a historic profile, but it's also like really clean. and know, clean lines and so it feels almost transitional compared to like an OG profile. So anyway, those are kind of like some of the things that I nerd out about and we really look for on Windows and then I love about, yeah, how we pick Windows. It's interesting you said that I don't think I've ever been asked or asked somebody what their favorite window is. So I think I'm going to use that as like a pickup line, if you will, or an intro line when I'm having conversations just to people out and about or with contractors and architects. What's your favorite When someone answers that, well, you'll know that's the guy. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. You're a casement guy. I love it. It is interesting that you said that the five eights, I just had this conversation just yesterday about how a five eights putty profile is actually extremely traditional. And we find them on a lot of these original windows here in the Pacific Northwest, some of these original double hung windows, single pane. And you forget that those putty were actually hand putty. That's how they held the windows in. So to translate that over into these grill patterns or something that someone like a Sierra Pacific windows can do and does do on the regular. It's nice to be able to bridge that gap between traditional as well as modern because that 5-8 profile also emanates a steel window look without having to have that steel window price tag. Yeah, absolutely. And it does it. You know, we've done quite a few historic remodels of, know, they're about 100 year old homes and they'll have original wood windows and they may or may not be in great shape if they were taken care of or not. But yeah, it's that very similar 5-8 putty.

Austin Tunnell

that are actually puttied. You you have to put in a single pane of glass. It's actually really handy for repairability because we can repair a little single pane and then putty it back in. There you go. But speaking about historic windows, can you walk through, and this is something I'm really not too familiar with, kind of the history, some of the history of windows and how they've evolved and developed over time. Yeah, it's an interesting topic for those that are listening in the building industry, even those that are listening that are educated consumers wherever you're coming from. These are fun topics to bring up. They're great icebreakers if you're having client meetings. They're fun just to know back pocket information. But, know, where Windows came around was really first century AD and it was a Roman technology. But it also started before when those, you know, in the BC era were figuring out how to take molten sand and turn it into glass. And although it started as small little beads or pieces of jewelry, that evolved into bigger pieces of glass. They would make glasses for drinking and then from there stretch that glass to be able to get placed into openings. if you go back and do some window history, even animal skins acted as windows, paper, cloth would close the openings of these these places that were built, know, stone, brick. I'm a super Vikings nerd and have watched all the episodes. So it's fun to see the evolution of how they went from kind of these huts into, you know, evolutionizing their homes and starting to utilize windows. And even we think about stained glass now and how ancient that technique is. and certain patterns would emanate or let people know, you know, the different houses or what their beliefs were, or all of these things that would just kind of broadcast out to those that were walking by and it like who owned that castle and what they stood for. So it's really interesting when you take a deep dive into that, fast forwarding into single pane glass and the technology of construction moves slow.

Austin Tunnell

And even in the way of windows, think some of the modern technology evolving is, you know, things like triple pane glass or glass that could be opaque at the touch of a button and then clear at the another touch. But really what hasn't changed is introducing dual pane glass, argon, the low E coatings that help with the efficiency. So it spans the spectrum of history. But yeah, that's Kind of where I get my historic facts from is really ancient times, Roman times is when we really started to see windows going into buildings. That sounds like that meme going around, like how often do you think about Rome? You would have said a lot apparently. Me too, actually. You know, I hadn't thought of that. When was Glass, did you say first century AD? Is that when Glass came about or was it in... That's when it started to be used more in a window aspect into buildings. At least that's the history that I've seen along the way prior to that. Again, it was the animal skins and the cloth that they would use to close those openings and give some privacy and protection, I would assume. Do you know back then how they were actually making the glass, like how one would make a small pane of glass 2000 years ago? I do not know. just probably heating up sand, know, silica and yeah. I mean, they had blacksmiths and making, you know, I can't remember. Yeah. So I guess. OK. Interesting. You one of those accidental things where somehow they figured out that the, you know, forging sand created glass. And again, going back, it's there was like small stones of glass or beads of glass that started off the evolution of them, most likely stretching. into larger pieces for, like I said, glasses and then the windows. Speaking of glass technology as has advanced over time, what is the process difference to make tempered glass? Because as a builder, we use tempered glass all the time for code issues, whatever, And I know what it is. It breaks and it crumbles, so it doesn't cut people.

Austin Tunnell

which makes a lot of sense because we've got a historic house with this kind of like two little French doors in the house that are probably about a hundred years old. And I've got an eight month old at home and he's a little dude and I feel like he's just about to punch through it and cut himself all up. I wish those were all tempered or not. But anyway, what actually makes the glass tempered? How do you do that? It's, it's the way in which they will, fire it through an oven. There's a, there's a high pressure oven and a lot of intense heat that gets applied to the glass when it's going through that process. So really it's just a different way of, know, glass is made by heating up sand and stretching it from there. There's a secondary, you know, technique, if you will, where they place it through a tempering oven and there's an extreme amount of pressure, almost the pressure that emanates like what it would be in space plus that heat that helps to cure the glass so that when it does break, it's not in shards, it's going to be safe enough for your little dude if. God forbid something does happen and a baseball goes through or, you know, it a wild night of, you know, kind of rough house. Got it. Okay. So it's a secondary process. You take a normal piece of glass and then basically temper it. It's like an extra step. Yeah. Or it's a process that they understand that this would be a tempered piece of glass because it is a, it's a really unique oven. I don't know if you have anybody's ever gone through the process or gone and visited like a Cardinal factory, but there's an extremely long, almost like tube like oven that will, it has to place the low E coating on there and there's an atmospheric pressure that is, like I said, the same that you would get in space. And then from there, taking it secondary through that tempering oven would increase the heat to strengthen the glass in a different way, from what I understand. And what is that low E coating that goes on it? And actually two part question. Am I right that glass was leaded or is it just that you're talking like muttons and stuff and the frames were made out of lead and then glass was going in them or is there ever a circumstance where there actually is lead in glass or am I just making that up? I'm not sure the exact like compounds like from a molecular standpoint what exactly goes into leaded glass but from what I was referring to is placing the lead that hot lead into the glass to create those decorative you know lead glass or stained glass pieces. Yeah I've some of the leaded

Austin Tunnell

glass windows, I call leaded glass, where yeah, basically the, I don't know, all the frames and mountains are leaded are very, very beautiful. But what is that low E coating that goes on it and exactly, yeah, what does it do? So low E, it's a, it's a fun word. It's low emissivity, which pretty much equates to bouncing radi, radiant heat back to the source. So low E is a coating and it's, you know, it can be iron. It can be all different, you know, a couple, a mixture of different things. that help to coat the glass so when heat source is applied to the glass, it then bounces back to that heat source. So when you hear about like a low E 272, that's a glass that I'm familiar with, because we use it a lot in Sierra Pacific's glazing profile is low E 272. So it's two coats of low E with a 72 % light transmission that comes through. So when you start to increase the benefits of the glass, let's say you do a low E 366, that's three coats of low E with a 66 % light transmission through. It's almost like tinted. I don't like using the word tinted because tinted is actually a secondary film that can go on the glass to actually darken it. But sometimes you'll see glass, if it's a low E366, it might cast a little bit more green at a certain angle, less clear if you were to compare the two. But the way that I like to speak to our homeowners or have our contractors speak to it is that when you're looking at glass, you're not looking at it, you're looking through it. So it truly is a clear glass, but these low E coatings do. A handful of things are going to help with the you factors and in certain markets, the you factors are really strict and you have to meet certain numbers. Some are a little bit more lax and the numbers don't have to be as stringent. But also thinking about your homeowner, the end goal is to make sure that they're feeling comfortable in their home. So they're warm in the winter and they're cool in the summer.

Austin Tunnell

with a majority of our walls in our home, especially with these big custom homes, sometimes up to 40 % of a wall could be glass or your windows. So how is that going to affect how you're feeling in the home? So focus on how you want to feel less about, it gonna look green? Is it gonna look blue? Cause you really truly will look through that glass over time. That makes sense. If you've been enjoying the Building Culture podcast and are listening on Apple or Spotify, could you pause for just a moment and leave a five star review? My goal is to get to a hundred reviews. And if you do take a screenshot and email it to playbook at building culture.com playbook, P L A Y B O O K at building culture.com. And when we hit a hundred, I'll randomly pick five winners and send them a building culture hat that looks just like this. I appreciate it and back to the show. Going back just a little bit, one more thing. I've got a few questions I'm realizing on glass and windows. Asking questions and hopefully other people are interested too. Do you know, I guess the advent of what I would assume when we first started doing windows and they started off with smaller kind of like window panes because because you could only they could only make small pieces of glass. And so like, you know, what we see in modern architecture today where you get, you know, giant windows that are just big pieces of glass or big pieces of glass on buildings wasn't even possible not all that long ago. And now when we do add those dividers or those mountains on the window, it's really still just two big pieces of glass. I'm saying two big pieces of glass, assuming it's, you know, an argon, whatever window for energy efficiency. It's simulated divided light. And you're just kind of like putting the pattern on there. Is energy efficiency the only reason we're doing that? Like just do two big pieces of glass and then SDL? Or is there a reason? Does anyone ever do like actual like small panes of glass with, know, say, for example, like putty, or is it just not energy efficient enough? And that's why it went away. You know, I don't believe would be energy efficient. And also, too, it's those smaller panes of glass. I know. We had talked about when we first got introduced together.

Austin Tunnell

even trying to restore original windows where they still have those putty muttons that are holding in those small individual panes of glass. That truly is an art in itself and not many people out there are restoring those original windows because the technology has advanced for it to be a dual pane piece of glass that then has those simulated. dividers or those SDLs or what we're considering muttons for this conversation in there. So if it's something where somebody is trying to really capture that true traditional original window with the smaller panes of glass, there's only a handful of outfits out there that are still in the art of restoring those windows. And I don't know if anybody's ever gone down that road to try to restore windows, but often compared to a brand new modern window, brand new out of the factory, that process can sometimes be double, if not triple the cost of just getting a new window because of the craftsmanship involved. We've experienced that on historic renovations, frankly. There are some people that are very good at it, but it's also very expensive, which actually leads me to a question about the maintainability of modern windows because I get that... question actually a good bit like in business I get that question a good bit of how long will these windows last if something breaks how do you fix it you know how and of course there's there's there's a range of different windows so let's kind of stick with that I don't know the aluminum clad window and you know a lot of manufacturers make that wood window aluminum clad what happens if you just break break break the glass, know, a rock hits it. Did someone just come out and can they take the muttons off and just replace the whole piece of glass? I know we've had to do it before, but I think they just replaced the whole sash maybe. Yeah, that's usually what it comes down to. A majority of the modern windows, aluminum clad windows out there will have the ability to be able to remove what's called your glazing bead or your glazing stop. And oftentimes those can be on the exterior.

Austin Tunnell

So your contractor or your window manufacturer you're working with could head out to the job site, take those glazing beads off. Then that pane of glass or that insulated glass unit we refer to as an IGU can be removed and then replace. so you take out the double pane so that you can put something that's argon filled back in. Correct. Correct. I see. And so you can actually just replace a piece of glass in it. It's not that hard. It's not that hard. No. And again, it's There's a difference of replacing a modern window. Now, if you're trying to do that in a original single pane window, that starts to get like we talked about into that craftsmanship that's a little bit different. With some of the older aluminum windows, just straight aluminums that are dual pane, those can be a little bit challenging to remove the glass. As long as there's an evident glazing bead and... you know, I invite everybody after this podcast to go look at their windows and see if you could even see what your glazing big bead is. It's just the small kind of caps, if you will, that are holding the glass in. But there are a lot of outfits out there that can just replace the glass. And then at that point, it's just a conversation of having, you know, with yourself or with your homeowners, is this the way you want to go? Or is it time to maybe consider replacing your windows for a more efficient? you know, energy efficient window or a more modern window. So the maintenance of it is, know, within a brand new window should be slim to none. unless something goes, you know, less than perfect. And sometimes that happens in construction and just knowing there's ways to be able to, you know, maintain that window or have it fixed in the field. Yeah, that's what I get. They're quite, yeah, I've always thought the aluminum cloud, basically is, I always say, hate saying maintenance, no maintenance because People can interpret that all sorts of things. Sure. Low maintenance because I'm kind of like, what would you do to the window? on that question, like how long is one of these windows expected to last? And there's different ways of lasting, right? There's the warranty period, but then there's just like, how long could one of these windows feasibly last and how does it fail? You know, I know the I would imagine the weather stripping fails first, but that's really easy to replace.

Austin Tunnell

What's kind of the evolution of a window degrading or failing over time? Like one of these modern windows, Argon leaks out. Yeah, it's a great question. And it kind of adds up to the question of, know, why are my windows so expensive or why are these windows cheaper than these windows? And it really comes down to the quality of the product. You know, I can't help but kind of let this conversation conversation sneak in about, you know, this this throwaway culture, which we tend to. have found ourselves in, whether we like it or not, it's fast fashion and quick turnaround time for some of these products that we want in and out of our home. I personally would never put windows into that category, but it depends on the building material. If you're looking at a vinyl window, what's vinyl made out of? It's PVC, polyvinyl chloride, which is a plastic derivative. How long... does PVC last? could last a long time, but you know, exposure to sun and cold over time can shrink, can expand a vinyl window. We find that a majority of window failures tend to be in that vinyl category, just based off of just the pure chemical makeup of what it does over time versus if you start to look more into the high end, kind of building material of windows where, you we have wood, which is extremely efficient. It's very good at insulating. does, sure, wood will, it'll move, it'll, you know, take on the shape of it, what it wants to, but there's a great techniques and products out there, especially I think about, you know, cause I'm familiar with it with Sierra Pacific's, a product we called CoreGuard Plus that we treat our wood with, that helps with, you know, maintaining moisture content, any critters or creatures or bugs, if you live in an area that has that as a challenge. So comparing like a cheaper PVC vinyl product to a high end wood product, they're going to fare very differently over time, where your PVC or vinyl window might last, you know, 10 to 15 years, it could be longer depending on your exposure.

Austin Tunnell

your aluminum clad window could be 30 plus years. You our window division is a newer one. We've been around for 30 plus years, but we have original windows still in homes, still performing the way they used to and still are. So I hope that answers your question. It kind of can span. And then there's other products out there, no composite windows that are a combination of wood and polymer. They're an extruded product. You've got fiberglass, which is you know, silica and different resins and com, you know, chemical compounds that get. Poultruded in one direction. all have strength. I think all have, you know, you have to pay attention to the integrity. Usually your fault lines in any window are going to be your corners. You know, how do you fasten a fiberglass corner? How do you fasten a. a vinyl window corner, how are you fastening a wood aluminum clad corner? There's functionality and craftsmanship involved with each of those. That's interesting. And you actually kind of confirmed, you mentioned the year, like I've heard vinyl windows, you know, that 10 or 15 year range. And you kind of repeated it. Obviously there's not a hard and fast fact. It depends on a bunch of things, but that's what I've heard is they're kind of expected to last 10 or 15 years and they're still not cheap. You know, like I'm not I get why people use them in certain contexts, but sometimes I would make the argument that we pack, we build. We build very expensive, cheap houses in America in a lot of ways where where the wealthiest country in history. And granted, there's a lot of people that can't afford houses. I'm I can't I'm not talking about everyone, but a lot of the houses built today are expensive, cheap houses, and they've got really nice stuff inside. wood floors or granite countertops or quartz countertops or whatever. But then they've got stuff like vinyl windows. And it's not that vinyl windows are inherently bad because if you're trying to meet a certain market, right, and I'm the developer, I understand like you have to be able to rent the product and rent it to people and still cash flow or it's not going to happen. And so like I get the place for kind of more disposable building and disposable windows as it's intended to be more temporary in a lot of ways.

Austin Tunnell

But the main problem that I see is that we're actually building what's really should be more permanent housing where the budget's actually there. But we're like, nah, instead of building 2,000 square feet, I'm going to build 3,000 square feet. I'm going to put a bunch of nice stuff inside, but I'm not going to put nice windows. I'm going to do cheap stuff on the outside. then that house actually degrades and we actually waste all these luxury expensive finishes inside that has all, yeah, it's kind of a... Yeah, that's it. It's a good point. I have this conversation often where, you know, I go back to we think about, you know, how we're building a home and there's a lot of emphasis on energy efficiency and there's a lot of emphasis on quality products. I often scratch my head when windows tend to be the first thing that get value engineered out of these homes and If you think about it on the reverse, if you were to put, you know, a high quality, high end custom window into these spaces, that's going to then kind of spider out into the efficiencies of the walls and how it's performing. And even thinking about having windows that are going to protect the rugs, your artwork, furniture, even your granite countertops, like your cabinetry, all of these things. if they're exposed to elements of sun and UV over time, they start to degrade even the interior of your spaces. So it's a deep dive into how long is this home going to be your, this is my dream home. I've been designing this, it's on paper. We're actually physically building this. I've been waiting my whole life. This is my life's investment. I've wanted, you know, keep this in the generations. I want my kids' kids to have this home. It's our secondary house, this is where people come together. Or is it something where I live in Seattle, where it's a very transient population. People tend to be here for three to five years and then they leave to go to the next tech company or... So I align with you because it's, I live in a townhouse, it's new construction. It's nice, it's a very nice space, but are the materials of the top tier? No.

Austin Tunnell

So how long will these last? Probably 10 to 15 years until they start to need some severe maintenance. So. Yeah, I'll just, I'll move on from it. I'll say one more aside. Like I think to actually solve that problem is like appraisals are such a problem in this area because the appraiser doesn't recognize a vinyl window versus a wood window versus whatever, you know, and you could literally spend three times more or four times more on the windows, but it's more just what is the price per foot? And then someone sees, you know, nice countertops and thinks that means the house is nice. It really is both. I would love to see the appraisal industry shook up some a lot to value, not just space. We don't value our cars based on like price per cubic volume, you know, of car. And so why do we do that with houses? I it's really a dumb way to. It's a it's a helpful metric, but it should absolutely not be the only metric. But anyway, that's my little tirade. I like that. it's all about, I think, educating. And there's a lot of educated consumers out there that are the ones that are building these homes. And I do want to give credit where credit's due. They do the research. And they are very much into where their products are coming from. Where are they made? Who's making them? Who are the people behind the brand? Which is where, again, that question of why do windows cost so much? Well, does still come down to the quality of the products, where they're coming from, how they're manufactured, who's manufacturing them. That starts to add up to a different experience. Like if you worked with Sierra Pacific windows, understanding the industry side of that house is truly started as a lumber company in 1949 with one single sawmill, which is develop themselves into this window division, which you're familiar with, but it's family owned, it's privately held. There's true craftsmen in these factories day to day, hand making a lot of the components that go into the windows and doors that are in your home. So knowing the story, and there's a lot of people out there that may or may not know truly where their products are coming from. And quite frankly, they may or may not care, but I feel

Austin Tunnell

as an advocate for Sierra Pacific windows, it's ask those questions, just be curious. Especially with Austin, with you and podcasts, it's allowing people to be more curious and ask those questions and bridge the gap about where things are coming from now. I do think there's definitely a shift in culture now. where there is so much stuff out there and you can get anything that you wanted a click of a button and a lot of stuff is commoditized and wanting a story behind it. And it's really interesting that, mean, windows are immensely complicated. And the funny thing is I didn't really think about it even as a builder because I would order windows and then they would show up on my jobs. I'm like, here's a window. You you see it completed. It's like your daughter probably thinks you can just magically order anything off Amazon. Right. And that scares me. But anyway. I That there are people behind all of these products. And I feel like as I've actually gotten older, I'm more and more aware of all the amazing stuff we have around us. Every little thing, this podcast, mean, who knows how many components are in this microphone and the amount of people involved. And Windows are the same way. And sorry if this is heresy, but the only window manufacturer I've actually visited was not actually Sarah Pacific, it was Pella. yeah. absolutely blown away. And it was their Pella factory and where is it? will Pella. Yeah. And take 600 people to operate at any given time. It takes like, I forgot how much like an hour to walk across the whole campus or something like that. And, and it's like people are it's just busy people. Everyone's got their own thing. And just to make like a window I was I was like blown away and I've never looked at windows the same way again. And I really appreciate it. I appreciate it a lot more. Yeah. It's not often do people get a chance to go visit the factory in which they're going to be purchasing their windows and doors from. And there are some companies that are very much into inviting their homeowners, their contractors into those spaces to see it. And it really does.

Austin Tunnell

I think ground you or root you for pun intended is to where and how and the people and you watch them hand bending these custom, know, arch top windows with, you know, the beautiful grills that you custom designed. And it took a bunch of shop drawings back and forth and you're watching them physically put these patterns onto the glass with a lot of attention. and a lot of care and a lot of pride in what they do. I'm old fashioned, my thought process that I just, don't want these crafts to go away. They're just too beautiful. There's too many people out there that are so skilled at it. And I think we're seeing a little shift in that American made craftsmanship coming back into our homes with, you know, shoes or clothing, windows, doors, things like that. As much as, you know, An Amazon package probably shows up daily to my house. When it comes to a good pair of shoes or a nice jacket, I'm more likely to purchase something that's more expensive, that has the longevity rather than toothbrush heads that came in the mail today. They have to be tossed out at some point anyway. At this point, you all know that Sierra Pacific Windows and OneSource Windows and Doors sponsors the podcast, but I want to take a moment to tell you about why we use them at Building Culture and why I personally love their product. Take their H3 casement series, which is probably the line we use the most. It's their entry-level aluminum clad window. And what's so cool about it is it has a ton of options. It has something like 27 different colors you can get. Maybe it's more at this point. And also you got all sorts of different Muntin profiles that in a lot of other entry level series, you're only gonna get five or six colors and you're gonna only have like maybe one profile that you can get, say an OG profile. And sometimes we use OG profile, but what I really love, our favorite, my personal favorite window that we use absolutely the most is with a 5-8 putty profile. And this all of is very nerdy, but if you're an architect, you're a builder, you're redoing your home, this is really important stuff.

Austin Tunnell

And I love the five eights putty because it's narrow, but it's got these clean lines compared to a, an OG profile. So it feels, it feels both historic because it is a historic profile, but it also feels kind of modern. So it can hit that really nice transitional style and vibe also as a really like thin frame. And so it's just a really nice window that I feel it feels sleek. feels a little bit modern, but it also feels historic and classic. And so. That's why we use them. if you, the Sierra Pacific distributes all over the country. And then if you are in the state of Oklahoma, one source windows and doors is who we source our Sierra Pacific through. So check them out. Got the links and the show notes. Back to the show. Yeah, a shift in fewer but better things I think you see culturally and you I would like to incorporate more in my own life. you know, actually on this top is kind of an interesting segue. We're talking about people, but also we're in the age of C &Cs and robotics and AI. And how do you see that shaping the window industry? Because, you know, as we've talked about, mean, windows are incredibly, I mean, one of the most expensive pieces of house. And unfortunately, they're a lot more expensive now than they were just four years ago. Just all the price inflation through COVID and all that. How do you see CNC, well, AI robotics kind of being incorporated into window manufacturing and what does that do? What's kind of the future of window manufacturing as you see it? It's interesting. I think there's always been automation. Some of the parts and pieces, and we all know in the construction industry, doesn't move as fast as technology in a sense. There's still a lot of old school techniques that still are involved with building materials in general. So the automation that we've seen is really in kind of our glass manufacturing, handling glass, know, handling large pieces of glass to be able to be placed into doors, into windows. And some of these robotics also to take a lot of physical pressure off of those that are handling the glass in the windows. So it helps with their

Austin Tunnell

longevity in their careers because it's helping to assist really heavy pieces of glass or really heavy pieces of wood that they need to be handling efficiently for us to be able to keep up with the lead times. Also too, for us, we have a state of the art powder coating facility in each of our manufacturing facilities. So that automation and that technology to be able to have a piece of aluminum come through and to know exactly how much powder needs to be, know, sprayed onto that. This proper amount of heat that it takes to cure that powder coating. So again, not the newest technology. I'm curious to see how much AI will be brought into windows and doors. I don't think that technology is there yet. maybe in the design aspect of it on the front end as for the manufacturing. I don't think there's major that's kind of crested that horizon yet for for manufacturing. Have you seen anything out there or what's been your experience? No, I don't think I have. I mean, I not in particular and related to Windows. I think we are kind of like in the new part of like AI and robotics, but I do think the next decade is going to be pretty fascinating and there probably wouldn't be some or a lot of disruption. You know, I don't necessarily see disruption as bad. You know, there's this robotic stone carving guy in New York City, Mike Monumental Labs, and he's actually bringing people back into stone carving through his robotic stone carving because like stone carving was dead because it was so expensive. And now like The robot gets at 90 % there and then humans have to finish it. And so he's actually bringing people back into stone carving. And like, that's amazing and actually creating new art out of it. So I kind of see technology being disrupted, but then it's like, what can then come of that? It's not inherently good or bad. You mentioned like, you know, you know, we, tend to kind of dip our toe into the mass timber aspect of it too. these kind of CLT homes or these.

Austin Tunnell

know, mass timber homes and how they're being manufactured and, you know, kind of houses that can be palletized and brought to job sites and then kind of erected in a very modular way. So the modular home evolution, I think is, is something that is interesting and something we all should be taking a look at, you know, the CNC houses or modular homes, you know, and thinking about how quicker but with better quality products, these houses, maybe it's a better quality product and it's a higher end experience, but because of the automation or this modular aspect, they can be erected quicker, which helps with time in the field. That can help with the efficiencies of some of the costs. So, I'm just kind of brainstorming to see what's out there when you see some of these keynote speakers, these really smart techie people. that are bridging the gap between technology and homes and, you know, even trying to create modular homes, you know, on, you know, on Mars, you know, things like that. What is that looking like? So, I think the modular home, there's a lot of potential there. And it just reminded me of one of the technologies I have seen, which you hear a lot about prefab right now. And not that many people have figured it out. Most people will kind of say, it doesn't actually save you that much money in the end. I've recently met someone who was coming in about 20 % less. But another thing I've seen is what's called distributed manufacturing. And so was like on the this was like a couple years ago on the call with they were kind of like a VC backed company. But where they actually you can buy basically a manufacturing plant and it comes and they can just put it up for you and they've got everything, all the robotics, all the software, all the AI, and you bring in raw materials, metal, wood, and it produces everything you need for the house. And it builds the window. And it does take people to of man it all. But it's pretty, I was pretty shocked at how, I mean, it takes like 100 people to run the whole thing or something like that. But you basically produce, I mean, it was prolific.

Austin Tunnell

I can't remember the stats on it, but that was an interesting piece coming down the line that I want to keep my kind of like ear to the ground on. Yeah, I've seen some shows on, you know, HGTV that, you know, come in and they do these kind of modular homes, but we're only seeing a small snippet of it. It's not, know, it's, it's, it's interesting or fascinating to hear. It takes about a hundred people. It's a lot of people, know, is there often a hundred people on a job site? No. So, you know, it's a, Maybe it's there, there's something there. I'm just not sure when and how we will see that play into long-term strategies for efficiencies in construction and It's a tough one because buildings are getting increasingly complex. So that's one of the reasons why it's harder to make it cheaper is because they're always getting more complex. You know, one of the things I've wondered about windows as you know, I'm pretty familiar with vinyl and pretty familiar with wood windows and aluminum clad windows, these new fiberglass and composite windows. Yes. I've heard like overall, think good things about their durability. Can you talk about these new composite and fiberglass windows and how you think about them? Yeah, I can. I can do my best. mean, my specialty is in, you know, aluminum clad working for an aluminum clad. window manufacturer. I have experience with some of the composite products that are out there. One in particular was a PVC wood kind of hybrid, if you will, where they extruded these lineals, corner keyed them. And that's what they would kind of frame the window out of. There's always going to be benefits to something of a composite because you are melding to products together. you know, it's sold as such where there's, you know, a more of a longevity. I think the only, I guess, concern, if you will, or things to pay attention to is that it does limit style. It limits color selection. Kind of, you know, you get to pick maybe at five colors. And we all know with customization in a lot of these homes, it's like,

Austin Tunnell

they're wanting something unique and different in their windows. So it does limit the selection of wood or if you're wanting different colors on the exterior. Also sizes are extremely limited when it comes to a lot of these composite type windows. You can only stretch fiberglass or a poltruded product as far as it can go until it starts to lose some integrity. And with fiberglass, it's, I think about it like fiberglass is meant to be laid up in one piece. Like if you think about like a boat hull, it's molded in one piece. So when you're taking and trying to create a window frame, you have one piece and you have one piece. Well, those have to be fastened some way together. Oftentimes in a fiberglass application, it's the corners, right? Corners tend to be the trickiest thing with a lot of these composite windows, where if you're still working with like a wood material, you can still do like a mortise and tenon joinery, kind of that old school craftsmanship where you're joining those windows together at the corner without having to kind of glue and screw that. Interesting though. go up, we see fiberglass out there as a competitive product and where it tends to win is in the aesthetics, because it's really, really narrow. and really thin and you can get some good sizes on there. But that's my experience. I don't know if you've heard or seen anything different. There's again, there's benefits and challenges, I think to any building material out there. Yeah, it depends what you're solving for. No, I think that's pretty consistent because we've never used them because they're not like, I think they're almost the same price as like aluminum clad, or at least the ones that I've seen. So I'm kind of like, well, I'm going to use aluminum clad because I can get what I want. Cause you write super limited on color. and they have to have like a texture to them. They look like composite material, I guess you could say. And so if we were building a rental product and that was going to be really durable, low maintenance, I would totally consider it. But mean, aluminum clad is still our go-to at building culture. OK, I was just kind of curious because I hadn't talked to someone about it in while.

Austin Tunnell

And I've been on and off job sites and my background's in the replacement world before I started working for C or Pacific Windows. And so, I would often see really where Windows were mostly failing. When I was consulting with homeowners, it was because there was a lot of challenges or a lot of really bad issues with the windows. And that's why I was there diagnosing and hoping to create a solution. That's really where I saw kind of the fault in these composite windows was the corners. Not all, but some, a majority of it. Yep. You mentioned this earlier, but it's the technology that I think is super cool and talking about kind of the future of window manufacturing. I can't remember what it's called, but it's the glass that you can, I don't know, click a button and it turns opaque or clear. And I mean like totally opaque, mean, or totally clear. completely clear, wouldn't be able to know, then goes opaque. What is that called? So we were familiar with what's called click glass, C-L-I-T, and that comes out of Cardinal. We have been using Cardinal glass exclusively since we've created Sierra Pacific windows. So there's other electrochromic glass out there that tends to like... generic term, electrochromic? Yeah. Where the click glass, which... I'm very familiar with and we've actually sold a couple, you know, very specific projects utilizing it is it's a liquid crystal technology. So there's physically tiny, tiny, tiny crystals within this kind of laminate sheet. And when the power is off, the crystals are aligned. So I think about it as if you lost your power, sorry, the crystals are scattered. So if you lost your power, you would have opaque glass because when the power is taken away from the crystals, they scatter. And then when the power is introduced to the crystals, they align. So I think about like a tube of straws all in a perfect alignment in the tube, you can see through it. And then if you were to scatter those straws, you can't see through it. And the neat thing, Austin, is that it's a low voltage, I think like 110 wattage. So like you could install it,

Austin Tunnell

basic electrical team on your contracting team could install it. You don't need some high-end licensed electrician to come in and wire this. It's a low voltage, easy to install, highly desirable for front doors, privacy glass and bathrooms. And we've seen it used internally too on the commercial sector for boardroom, meeting, conference centers and things like that. Very interesting. Yeah, it's a pretty cool one. mean, don't get me wrong. I like curtains and blinds, but, as we start to build more infill and sometimes, you know, you do want the cleaner, more modern look. And of course, a lot of modern houses don't have blinds and stuff, which always shocks me a little bit when they've got these giant windows in the front of their house, like on a main street and you're just like, huh. But I think that would be really, really, really useful in an urban environment to be able to have that. but it's also very expensive right now. When I checked, was kind of shocked. Yes. And there's some limiting factors currently. And this technology is not new. know Cardinal's been working on it for 10 years, 10 plus years to get it to perfection where it truly is a clear glass. They wouldn't roll this out unless it was everything but perfect. So there's some limiting factors where currently right now it's kind of rectangle size is not quite there yet when it comes to specialty shapes. Stationary units work really well. We have placed it into a pivot door, so kind of utilizing that pivot point within the door to wire the glass component, the electrical component into it. So, you know, on the horizon, I'm sure there will be other operable units like your favorite window, the casement. being able to do that. What I do know is that the click glass, still has the same efficiencies as a low-wee. doesn't change any of the way that the glass is going to perform in the opening. So that's nice. It truly is just a fun, aesthetic technology that you can introduce into these high-end custom spaces. that is weird that when the power is off means it's opaque. means your power is off, it's going to be a dark house.

Austin Tunnell

Would you have your privacy, right? Yeah, you will have your privacy. And speaking of favorite windows, this is one more question because technically my favorite window, but I freaking never use it because they are so expensive. I have to get like a twin casement, you know, mold together, which always ticks me off. I want to get like a true French window that I can just, you know, like in the movies, you just kind of like cast them open. Why are those three times more expensive than like a twin casement? I'm just, you know, it's it's fascinating because. There's not as many components involved really. I mean, you don't have that meeting rail. There's no true like locking rail that goes into it. It's it's tends to be an old fashioned hinge window. You know, Sierra Pacific windows, I think is probably one, if not very few, one of very few, if not the only one that still makes a true French casement window. It goes back to, you know, the theme of really craftsmanship, you know, people making these windows by hand. Yeah, it's funny you ask like, why are they so much more money? It's not, there's nothing. thought maybe just Brian's just kind of screwing me. don't know. No, no. And again, it's a specialty where I think he can kind of capture that notion of not everybody's doing it. Not that that's our style here at Sierra Pacific. We want everything to be, you know, obtainable, especially when it comes to, you know, getting what you want and not having to compromise really. But they are so beautiful and whimsy and romantic and they create this notion of like, you know, old fashioned European, you know, villa. Yeah. Maybe that's what it is. We're, selling the emotion. Yeah. I think I know it's a print. is something like literally, cause the one thing about the casement is like, I'm going to open my window and then you're like, er, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it doesn't exactly have the feel like a push open, you know, the romantic feel. if you ever, if I ever have French casements in a house that I ever build for ourselves, you'll know that I've been doing well, guess. Wow. And well deserved. Because right now I don't have any.

Austin Tunnell

Well, cool. else, any other thought, anything interesting on Windows that we haven't, we kind of meandered here a little bit, but any, any other interesting factoids or thoughts on Windows? Yeah, I think, you know, with, Sierra Pacific too is, you know, we're, gosh, when you talk about architecture and these custom homes, like it's bigger, it's badder, it's, you know, think outside the box, take this opening and make it what you will. There's a really unique platform for that where we have a two inch timber curtain wall. So thinking about a wall of windows, which you would have to place, you know, kind of framing in between some of these oversized picture windows. have the capability to be able to dismiss the framing, use a two inch timber curtain wall, which is technically for us an LVL, you know, lineal. and then placing your glazing into that system. So you can really think about like one grand wall in your home, taking out framing and placing oversized glass in there with a two inch profile. So again, it's really just kind of the takeaway of this is just educating yourself, but really relying on your contractors and aligning with them. I give kudos to you Austin, you very much are into the minutia of the windows and doors. As a consumer, as a homeowner, I encourage everybody listening to really lean on those professionals. They have your best interest and they understand the emotion and the pride that goes into these custom homes. for those contractors, educate yourself, work with your local reps, know what's available, ask lots of questions. Let that translate into really building a dream. Cause we're all, that's all it really comes down to is building that good old fashioned dream home. You know, let's not let that go away with this throwaway culture. Let's really keep that alive. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to remind me, I'm going to tell architects a very, this is, this is a great secret I'm sharing right now.

Austin Tunnell

The Sierra Pacific offers an urban casement that is, if you put a piano hinge on it, you can meet egress with a 2040 window, which is unbelievable. I don't know anyone else that does it. having, for anyone that's an architect, you will know what I'm talking about. Being able to meet egress with a 2040, a two foot wide by a four foot tall window is amazing. Opens up so many design possibilities. The funny thing is I figured that out through kind of screwing myself years ago. I didn't have egress where I thought I did. And then I found out through Brian that we could swap window type, a piano hinge on it and meet egress. So anyway, that's kind of one of our design secrets at Building Culture. It's amazing. We literally use it all the time. We just use it on a really nice custom house. And we even did A3s downstairs and then urban casement upstairs. if you look super closely, you can tell. But no, like I'm super picky and I can't tell, you know, and one of the thing that we really like about kind of, and I know a few other manufacturers do this, but actually you guys are the only ones that I know that I can get big sheets from. We, with the Lumen and Cloud windows, most people, if you're an architect or builder or something, you'll know what frame expander is. So when we're doing brick houses, a lot of times we'll have this frame expander on there, but then we'll have an arch top. And so for example, if you go to an arched window, by the way, for anyone listening, an arched window, some people ask us, why didn't you do an arched Well, it's because it's three times more expensive. It's a thousand dollar window for a square window. It's probably $3,000 for an arch top window. So. we'll put a trim piece in the arch because that arch is a real structural brick element. And I don't even mind the trim piece, it's got lots of historical precedent. But thinking about maintenance from our perspective, a builder perspective and a homeowner perspective, if we've got this great aluminum clad window, but then we put wood trim around it and wood over here and have to paint that, that is, literally creating a maintenance issue. And so one of the things we do is we actually put aluminum clad frame expander around that matches the color. And then also the arch, Austin Tunnell (01:00:37.719) piece that's also the powder coated aluminum. And then you just kind of like caulk that to the brick and you have this unbelievably like extremely low to no maintenance window. I don't know what you fenestration assembly. Yeah. Yeah. So one more little key tidbit for anyone still listening to the end here. Yeah. Thank you. For those that still are. This is when it gets real. Right. know, last part of the nuggets to the end. yeah. We, we save them for you, but that goes back to kind of jogs my, you know, my thought into maybe the, the lack of features when it comes to some of these composited windows that are out there, you will not get that level of detail. from those, those window manufacturers. I I could see that with confidence where. You know, like you said, Austin, you've got these custom aluminum clad pieces, powder coated 30 year warranty on the exterior powder coat matched to the window. Your homeowner is never having to get up on a ladder and paint it, you know, because it's wood. Yeah, there's there's benefits to all of that and huge benefits. Wood trim. You have to keep painted. You're going to have it's going to rot. You're going to get leaks, you know. So it's actually it's a pretty big deal. It sure is. Well, Sarah, great to have you on. hope you have a great Thanksgiving and have fun playing in your band. Although I'm realizing this podcast is coming out after Thanksgiving. So anyway, but that's OK. If you've been enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe and share with your friends. And on if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, please leave us a five star review and take a screenshot. Send it to playbook at building culture dot com. And when we reach a hundred reviews, I'm going to send out a 10 building culture hats, like up there behind my head, if you're watching video, and I'll send it to your house. Thanks so much for listening and catch you on the next episode.