Matthew Plechan: How to Paint Masonry. The Durable, Breathable Beauty of Mineral Stains.

Austin Tunnell

Latex acrylic by a lot of major companies has also been marketed to the point where it's okay to use on concrete or masonry and it's not really accurate. If your surface is completely dry, you'll easily achieve 20 years out of these products. The least issues I have with is actually with homeowners that buy direct and they do their own installations and it's not as hard as it seems.

Austin Tunnell

Welcome to the Building Culture podcast, where we explore holistic solutions to crafting a more beautiful, resilient, and thriving world through the built environment. I'm your host, Austin Tennell. I interview leading change makers, architects, developers, builders, engineers, entrepreneurs, inventors, and more. I also share my own journey as the founder of Building Culture as we grow a holistic real estate development company from the ground up. Together, we can explore a new vision for city building in the 21st century. one that puts people at the center. If you enjoyed this podcast or find value in what we're doing, please leave a five-star review, share it with your friends, and drop us a note. Thanks for listening. I want to take a moment to thank the sponsors of our podcast, Sierra Pacific Windows. They are a national window and door manufacturer, some really high-quality windows and doors. We use them regularly in our building culture projects. So if you've got a renovation or a new construction, I highly recommend you talk to your local distributor and check them out. Also, OneSource Windows and Doors, it doesn't just matter the manufacturer, it matters who you're buying your windows from. And if you're in the state of Oklahoma, OneSource Windows and Doors, they've got a showroom in Oklahoma City and in Tulsa, and they service the entire state. We work with them regularly to purchase our Sierra Pacific windows. So if you're in the state of Oklahoma, check them out. Sierra Pacific windows and one source of windows and doors if you're in the state of Oklahoma. Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Matt Plehan, owner of Mineral Stains. And we talk about something I get asked about a lot, how to paint masonry. And so he's actually a local manufacturer of mineral stains in the United States, potassium silicate, sole silicate, and lime wash. So if you've been wanting to... know how to paint your masonry, whether you're a homeowner, architect, or developer or builder, this episode is for you. We start off with the why mineral stains over latex or oil-based paint, and then actually get into the products and how to do it. Not just his products, but other people that manufacture the products as well. Really glad to have him on. It was a great conversation. Make sure to check him out and his mineral stains company. Enjoy.

Austin Tunnell

Matt, it is great to have you on the podcast today. Likewise, nice to be here, Austin. Well, I want to run through, we can get nerdy at the end because I think there's quite a bit to get nerdy about. But I want to talk about a little bit of why we paint masonry the way we do. Because people ask me that question along kind of what materials to use and then how to actually apply it. And then we can get into a lot of the details. But to start off with the why. So I get the question a lot. How are you supposed to paint masonry? Because they've kind of heard offhand or me make a comment like, you shouldn't really be painting your masonry brick or stone or whatever and a latex or oil-based paint. And I always, what I say is that's because masonry is a porous material and you really want a vapor open paint to go on there so that the wall can basically breathe and dry out. that how you would describe it? Can you offer a little more detail? Sure. So that's exactly just the way as you explained. I think what happens a lot is the oil-based paint kind of went away unless you're doing something very thick and it's a specific type of wood. Latex acrylic by a lot of major companies has also been marketed to the point where it's okay to use on concrete or masonry and it's not really accurate. The other thing is when they do testings, I don't want to pick, let's say, on Sherwin-Williams here, but let's say a loxon that a lot of guys use on the exterior, when they do a water vapor test, it's only for the first hour. So when you do a water vapor test, you really want to do a 24-hour test because you want to see, how's my breathability going to be 12 or 24 or 48 hours from now, not just after an hour. So I think a lot of it has to do with ingredients. I think a lot of it has to do with education and A lot of the products that you see in stores, unfortunately, they do not meet the minimum water vapor transmission, which breathable products will get you about four to five times more of a water vapor transmission. Interesting. And yeah, and you've got a couple elements here. You've got kind of an aesthetic thing and also a quality issue where, you know, if you paint masonry,

Austin Tunnell

water is going to get into that masonry at some point and then the paint starts kind of like bubbling off and peeling off. So then there's kind of this ugliness that happens and you're going to peel off a strip of paint even. And then you also have the quality issue where moisture can actually get trapped behind there and know, say in freeze stall, you can actually get some damage. Yeah. So especially where we do service work in Chicago, it's very common where during the changes, contraction, expansion. And of course you have buildings that have been painted five, six, seven times and you're just putting band-aid on top of band-aid and it's making it worse. And it's those thaw cycles that really do a lot of damage. That moisture is trying to escape and at some point it just bursts and either it's chipping, flaking, but what people forget, it's not so much the aesthetic at that point, you're literally ruin masonry. So... I kind of always say if you were to reach out to a brick manufacturer and you were to tell them, I'm going to paint the house six times in the next 30 years, will you still kind of warranty or let me know if that brick is going to be good for 120 years? And I think they probably would say no at that point unless they had adequate information that it's going to be the right product. you're also decreasing the lifespan of your masonry, whether it's a mortar joint, brick, precast, even stucco. Hardy board, not so much, but for the most, the substrates that need a lot of water vapor transmission, if you will. Yeah. Well, the good news, and even though it's not very popular or well known in America, I do think there is a resurgence. And then there's, you know, local manufacturers like you that I'm really excited about. But the cool news is Yes, you shouldn't use latex paints these other paints, but there actually are paints you can use for masonry and not only do they work better, protect the masonry, I actually think they're more beautiful, which we can get into that in a little bit. So why don't you walk us through kind of probably the two or three main types of mineral stains. I think it's probably what we call them generically out there, know, potassium silicate, lime wash and sole silicate. If that's the third one you would put it, if you would add another one. Sure. So theoretically,

Austin Tunnell

you know, we're mineral stains and we all call it a stain, but in a nutshell, it's really a paint. The reason why we call it a stain is actually the absorbency. So it bonds and it adheres and becomes part of the brick, for instance. Latex acrylic, you're gonna put a plastic film, I'm just gonna use as an example, over the brick. Ours actually solidifies and becomes part of the brick, but at the same time, It does not break down the water vapor transmission, right? So obviously there's us, but I have to give kudos for the ones that got started in, I want to say the 1870s, which is Kine. So Adolf Kine was a chemist and by the failure of using lime products, right? So another competitor, Roma Barrio, that pushes a lime product a lot, they found that when using a lime product in the Northern Italian Alps, it was meeting the breathability requirement, but it was fading. It was too harsh of a climate. So if you use maybe a Tennessee, Colorado, hot and then really windy and then snow, even Chicago where we do service work, the lime is going to fade over time. Like you have to put almost a sealer over it. With our products, you really don't. So obviously you have kine, You have Beak, which is the second oldest company. They're also German. There is our healthy competitors we call Permatent in Toronto. And then there's a few smaller players that they pop up here and there. But for the most part, there's really like five, six companies out there. And of course, Romabio. Romabio has a masonry flat and a wine wash, which again, I'm not a fan of using lime on the exterior. It's even more breathable. But you need to have the UV protection as well. mean, it has to hold up for 15, 20 years, if you will. Yeah, I'll actually add on to that a little bit about Limewash versus Potassium Silicate, because I'm curious if I'm 100 %... I'm kind of talking from experience, but not like the technical knowledge that you have. So we Limewashed some of our first houses, solid masonry houses, back in 2018 and 2019. And we used, you know, like a four inch brush, this lime putty, watered down and kind of did a crush.

Austin Tunnell

crosshatch, know, all on the exterior, this white lime wash. And we did about two coats, I think. And it does fade away over time. Like what is it 2024? So I went down there. You'll see a lot of like red brick coming through it, especially where water is, especially on the, the parapets and stuff like that. I will say though, from kind of an aesthetic design architecture perspective, if you want that look, it's actually a very cool look. You know, a lot of people actually try to go after that lime wash faded kind of patina look. Yeah, German schmear and other things. it's like, do think lime wash is great for that. If that's the look you're going for. And this is how I describe it. People I was like, but if you want your house to literally be white or another color and to not turn translucent in the rain and be super durable and just like be on there, potassium silicate is the direction I would tell them to go. Is that, is that pretty accurate? It is accurate. You'd be able to get away with line, but you would have to almost put the entire house with a siloxane. And then every 10, 12 seasons, you got to do a sealer update. But here's the limitation. Say you get bored of the color because you could stain a hundred times over. Now you're stuck with that color for 10, 12 years. you use like Prasako has a good one. There's a chimney saver. We're going to have our own. Our sealer is going to have like five to seven years. that, you know, Up to 10 years is a long time if you want to do an update and now you can't because you have a sealer that is exposed to it. So I kind of called lime paint as kind of like putting a marble in the kitchen. Unless you put a sealer down, you spill some wine or red sauce or something, you're not going to be happy with that marble. So a lime is more delicate, if you will. And in all means, I don't like it because like an inch of your space is

Austin Tunnell

Like we have a one that has a pH of 12 to 13. It's the best thing you could use interior because you're not, you're never going to get any mold or algae because the pH alkalinity is just so high. On the lime. But on the exterior, you've got to be a little bit careful for instance. Yeah. And I actually kind of, mean, once again, like I, for the right client or something, if they really wanted that look, I might recommend lime wash if they're wanting it to fade, you know, and I'm good with that. But if they are wanting a solid color, Potassium silicate, know, one of the things you said is that potassium silicate is a little less water-absorbed to vapor open. actually, once again, I'm talking from experience here, not from a technical perspective per se, of understanding chemistry. But that can actually be a positive thing too, and that the less water that gets absorbed into the masonry, the better is how I would frame it. Now you don't want to trap moisture once it gets in there. But you know, from a structural masonry perspective, as you're saying, you've got a lot of buildings, say in old structural masonry buildings, Triple Wythe, Quad Wythe in New Orleans. And I was talking to these Prisoko guys once, you know, that spray the Siloxane on it, which is a water repellent for anyone listening. And they go down to New Orleans and they spray a lot of those brick buildings with Siloxane. And I was wondering if potassium silicate can actually kind of, it might not be as water repellent, but if you can kind of take the place of siloxane because it does have a thickness to it. And so if you've got all these little hairline, you know, cracks in the mortar and between joints and stuff like that, if the potassium silicate is kind of creating this continuous substrate, not to the extent that a stucco would, but creating this continuous substrate that actually makes it a little bit more waterproof while still once again being breathable and vapor open. that, would you agree with that or do you have, would you disagree with that? No, I would agree with that, to expand on, I spoke with my chemist about this today and we'll show this later, but even our primer, which is water glass based, it has a little bit of siloxane in there. So just by using our primer, even if you don't stay in a building, when it crystallizes within the mortar and brick, it's actually going to harden the surface. So obviously if the mortar flaking, you got to do a spot talk or a full grind. But if it's just a little bit where

Austin Tunnell

It's a little bit wear and tear on that side, for instance, it's perfectly fine. Using our primer is actually gonna strengthen that mortar a little bit. at the same time, it has a little bit of sidewalks in, so it's not a full water repellent, but it does repel a little bit of water. But when we do commercial buildings, two feet ground up, especially in common areas where they apply salt and a lot of like wear and tear. You do have the capability of using like a siloxane Seaworth at those first two feet ground up for instance and it gives you a little bit of added protection where you may not get it, know any flaking if you will because if My product or any product out there that potassium silicate is beyond 10 % moisture It's going to fail because once again when it turns hard it has to crystallize if it goes past the 10 % Not only is the product uncompromised, at the same time the brick and mortar over time is going to have moisture issues too. Just something to keep in mind. And I didn't mention one producer, my apology, KnockHawk. They do not sell. They do their own work. And they do, they're very heavy into doing stain, but then they apply a sealer over. So they have like their own in-house siloxane. I'm not a fan of it, but in a lot of ways it makes sense. If you do a high rise that's eight stories tall, are you going to want to do touch-ups five years down the road going up six stories? Getting up a scaffold or swing stage is too expensive. So what they do is they use a sidewalk stain typically, they're in-house, and they do a five-year warranty on that. And then they warranty their stains on 25 years, which I don't know how that works out for them, but they do use sidewalk stain for that reason. Got it. Is that actually, I haven't made this connection or maybe I'm incorrect here, but is sole silicate, potassium silicate with Siloxane or is sole silicate, because I always think about adding acrylic, a little bit of acrylic to it, are acrylic and Siloxane the same thing or are those different things? Because you have a sole silicate product as well, right? Yeah. So if we're going to talk about acrylic, every masonry stain has acrylic in there as the

Austin Tunnell

co-binder, but it's only up to 5%. So you either have the European version, which is 1062-1, or the most common that architects are going to know about is the DIN 18363. That's a German certification. And you cannot go past that mandate. Talking about organic food, for instance, if you reach a certain threshold, you cannot use a certificate. So that German certificate that for instance, Kine uses, we use the European, it's the same standard, but the Germans like to have their separate certificate, which is that DIN. And that 5 % what that acrylic does, so once the product goes on the wall, as the water glass evaporates, the acrylic kind of disperses. It's almost like non. So what you want to think about is if you do a mayonnaise or water and oil, it's a binder to bring the two components together. So acrylic is totally different from your question. So then the potassium silicate is only using a little bit of acrylic to then bring in the colors. And then you mix it. So imagine doing a water and oil kind of a mixture. You have to bring them together, like a cofactor. When you talk about sole silicate, it's a little bit more expensive because we have to put in more silica. Silica, as I call it, is that gorilla glue, where then you could use acrylic primer and not just our primer but any primer, a universal primer. And that's why you could use a sole silicate on any surface that's been painted before using a latex acrylic coating. Got it. And so just one more follow up question on painting the exterior of a brick house or commercial building or whatever. What is, know, once again, we kind of said lime wash. If you really want that look, you can use that, but know it's going to wear. then the other two kind of primary products for this are what? Potassium Solicate and Sol Silicate? Are those like the two other products? And what would you recommend between those? Like what's the difference? And why would you recommend one over the other? So masonry stain, you're, two things, if you're on a budget, if you have like a naked wall, meaning it's never been painted or stained before, it's just regular brick or whatever masonry substrate.

Austin Tunnell

you'll get away with the masonry stain. Our sole silicate, when you add the silica, is gonna be a little bit more pricey. like our four gallon will jump from like 400 to from 300 to 400. So you figure a gallon's an extra $25 if you will, right? And just to be clear, you're not calling sole silicate a mineral stain? You're saying mineral stain that's potassium silicate, sole silicate is not a mineral stain? No, they're both. They're both potassium silicate. Okay, okay, that's what I thought. The difference is you're doing two things, a masonry stain, which is my potassium silicate, I'm just gonna use my example, it has a pH of 11 to 12. A sole silicate brings it down to an 11. It's a lower pH because it allows the product to be a little bit more flexible. And by adding that silica, the silica then is able to bind to the previous latex. So the only thing you need to do is you need to remove any loose paint before you apply it to a wall. But as the regular latex acrylic paint starts to demineralize over years, so like this, you're just going to have a color that's left over. All the resin, after three or four years, basically get just wiped out. The UV will just destroy it because you're using organic versus mineral pigments, which we could talk about later or another time. But when this breaks down, the sole silicate continues to work until it kind of waxes onto the actual substrate. So in theory, the sole silicate is actually stronger than like a standard masonry stain. You know what I would call it? I call it a hybrid. Imagine like, I don't know, you take a Toyota or any pickup truck that's regular and then you got a hybrid. It's a hybrid basically, because it gives you two things. You could stain it the same way. Or you could stain it on previously painted surfaces. like the back, interior walls, you could literally stain with sole silicate. You go over any latex acrylic. And what my chemists did, at least for our product, is it doesn't dry as quickly. So it's a little bit more, it mimics more of a wet on wet application. Because these are, the only negatives is when you apply masonry or potassium silicate, it dries quicker. The sole silicate gives you

Austin Tunnell

added minutes to where you can make some mistakes and then you could come back if you will. Same identical product, has a silica and just a lower pH. It's all of this. If you've been enjoying the Build and Culture podcast and are listening on Apple or Spotify, could you pause for just a moment and leave a five star review? My goal is to get to a hundred reviews. And if you do take a screenshot and email it to playbook at building culture.com playbook, P L A Y B O O K at building culture.com. And when we hit a hundred, I'll randomly pick five winners and send them a building culture hat that looks just like this. I appreciate it. And back to the show. Now I understand. Like if you've got previously painted, if you've got, maybe a coated brick of some kind, a lot of brick today have a coating on them. then you're gonna wanna use sole silicate, so that will stay on there. Say you've got an uncoated brick, just natural brick, and you're choosing between potassium silicate and sole silicate. Which one do you choose and why? If I don't have a budget, I will always go for the sole silicate. Just because it's gonna be a little bit easier to use. Longevity might actually be even a little bit slightly better. If I'm on a budget or I just don't care, masonry stain is perfectly adequate. Cool. And then what is the longevity on a sole silicate applied correctly? So the thing is, I don't like, we don't do like a 20, 25 year warranty, but I always say if your surface is completely dry, you'll easily achieve 20 years out of these products. And what does it look when it starts, you know, when I say quote unquote failing, because once again, some of these mineral stains, don't look ugly when they start, you know, fading like latex paint is it bubbles or peels? This is more like a wear is and I'm more familiar with lime wash over time. Is that kind of what sole silicate looks like potassium silicate over time? It's kind of like a worn look where the water's hitting the building a lot. Or does it look different? I so here's the thing. Like it's hard to do some history on somebody's buildings because obviously mostly these products were used in Europe.

Austin Tunnell

when we're going back to like 1920s, 1930s. But there's a couple of buildings, I think in Swiss Switzerland, that have had one application and the original stain or paint in this case was applied in like 1890, right? So you're talking about 120, 30 years of two applications. And I think it's not the Village Hall, it's like one of the main buildings in the town. So they have like murals. and it's just beautiful and it's held up over time, it could withstand a lot. I think what will happen is if you go from like a solid to like you want a transparent finish, so I'll give you like this example. I think after like many, many, many years, you may see maybe some coloring and everything else wear down, but it's always gonna be permanent to the actual brick. And see, that's what's interesting is like for me, latex paint peels off, looks like peeling paint. You've got to repaint it for the building to look good. When these mineral stains wear, it feels like patina to me. Now, if you just want, you're like, I want a perfectly painted building, great, you paint over it. But I think when people go to Europe, they look at all these buildings that have a time worn feel and they're like, how did, you know, and they try to like rapidly do that in the U S or something with kind of like petroleum based products. And that doesn't look good or last. versus this is something you can put on there and then it will actually turn into that thing where it's kind of faded in certain areas and the colors washed out. But depending on the look you're going for, that can be like really cool. Yeah. But again, that's going to take many, many years for that to happen because what's cool about the silicates is it's also non-combustible. So I always say, God forbid your house doesn't catch on fire, but unless your brick is used for like brick oven and it's a higher rated. it's gonna combust before the actual pigment will. So, you know, when we do fireplaces on the inside, we always ask, is anybody at home allergic? No, why? Well, it's very eco-friendly, it's odorless, but at the same time, if the fireplace really, really warms up, there's nothing that's spewing from using, you know, anything that's toxic or anything. It's literally just a pigment with a couple, you know,

Austin Tunnell

Additives and a water glass and and it's literally absorbing into that brick But it's also great if your wall happens to you know to warm up even if you have a fireplace that It shouldn't reach those temperatures, but if it does it's not it's not a factor You know if you put a latex paint over it It's probably not the best thing and and and it's also you breathe those types of things in so Eco-friendly this is the other thing is because sometimes people think that there's because it would stay in so many years, it kind of gives you the idea like, oh, is it kind of like polyurethane or is it this or is that? Not that poly is bad, but we're obviously not using for interior. But they think because it's so kind of like a heavy duty or a long-term product that for whatever reason, there's some type of a toxicity in there. And it's actually healthier because what we're using is it's literally earthen pigments. So organic pigments that are made with regular paints are actually chemically made or in the lab. This you're literally pulling a color or colors and that's it. And that's where it's, what stands the UV protection, if you will. So I was about to say it doesn't fade in that way because they're not organic pigments that kind of have, are sensitive to UV rays or the sun, right? Because they are. Yeah, and just going back to lime, you know what happens also, and I've covered this with my chemist. So when you have a true, true lime paint, and let's say you have a pH of 12 to 13, like this EFAS board here, right? If you go this dark using like a real, real lime paint, this color is going to wear down over time because the pH is just too high. It's going to like eat it, if you will. So lime colors in a nutshell, once you get past like a light gray like this, You don't want to go any higher with wine paints because at the same time it's so strong or it's so high in pH that the darker the color, it's going to give you a lot of trouble. And that's why when you go to like Mickey knows or parts of whatever islands in Greece, all the buildings are white for a reason when they use wine products, because it's the natural color. They're not trying to literally as white. Yeah, exactly. Right. And for that reason, they have a different

Austin Tunnell

climate, there's no winters, so it's easier for the line. Once you get into the winters, the harsh winds and everything, that's where potassium silicate kind of takes over and which one is more durable, if you will. And that's, yeah, we're really wanting to kind of emphasize that. Not only are you not hurting your masonry, it's super durable and low maintenance, so you might spend a little bit more upfront painting the house. But boy, that is going. to last, you probably will not have to repaint your house if you install it correctly. Yeah. As long as the moisture is within the parameters, of course, the water damage by all means, yes. Yeah. And then I want to touch on one more thing on aesthetics before moving into a little bit more about application, including water and how we're applying, how you recommend applying these things. But one of the things I tell people of why I like mineral stains, just even from an aesthetic perspective, is from my understanding, whether it's potassium silicate or lime wash, these things are really turning into a calcite crystal of some kind, and that has the properties of double refraction. And I'm sounding smarter than I really am, but what I know is that when one light wave hits it, it splits off too. And so how I've described that looking at it is whether it's a lime wash or potassium silicate, it has this really matte finish. But it also kind of glows in the sun, but I don't mean a shiny glow. It's the way it reflects light. And you actually can't replicate this look with petroleum based products. so like people, once again, will go to Europe and they'll say, I saw this amazing pink house or this amazing orange house. And they'll, you know, do a color match on it and then come back and paint their house pink or orange. And it doesn't look the same. And everyone is trying to go for that matte look. But like this is the most matte look you could get, but it's not. dull, actually has that, I don't know, it just kind of glows a little bit. Do know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I'm going to show you a quick example. Like I just did it really quickly. So it's not the bust example, but like even like this maroon, it's a regular drywall. I mean, it's a matte coat of finish and I love it. I mean, that's, you know, I like the vibrancy. I don't like too much of a shine. And I always say, unless it's a kitchen and we both have, you know, kids.

Austin Tunnell

There's a scrub test that comes into play from different things being thrown around or if you're doing a lot of cooking But all of my rooms are basically like a matte coated drywall. I actually prefer it There's obviously limitations than using a latex paint with with with with the sheen because that's the scrub test But you know, but when you get into the bricks, I mean like you said, it's a matte finish I love it and then you see all the all the little crevices and everything in the brick You bring that out actually versus if you put a plastic film over it, you wouldn't see this. And I love that. And then if you want to dilute it, you have a transparency. So I like it for the same reasons you do. Right. And that's a good point about you see the brick texture through it. That's a really important one. Very, so different than the look because you actually see the natural clay, all the little pock marks and whatever. And so it still feels like a natural material versus once you put a plastic coating over it, you literally like you're seeing plastic, not the brick and interacts with the mineral stains. That's a great I'm glad you mentioned that because it is a completely different look. And I think it's the look that so many homeowners are going for. Their builders or architects just don't know because it's not very popular right now in the U.S. But once again, it is getting more popular. So and then also, you know, emphasizing it's a very, I guess you could say sustainable product, being literally natural earth and natural pigments. And then also healthy in terms of non-toxic for people comparatively. Let's get into a little bit of application. Let's start with the exterior, because I think it's super cool that you could put this on drywall, but I want to start with the exterior on brick. Let's start with uncoated, unpainted brick, you're installing a sole silicate on it. What do you need to look out for and what do you need to do and how are you applying this? So two things say we're starting, we get to a property, we look at the condition of the brick and mortar is the mortar in good shape. Does it warrant any work or can we apply the stain? Obviously, as we mentioned, I look at the chimney, make sure it's got a proper overhang. So we go through, we do a walk over.

Austin Tunnell

We do a spray test too. We want to make sure there's no sealers on any brick or masonry. So you apply just the regular water test and obviously if it soaks in, you're good to go. I didn't bring it with me, in this moment, pH meter. You want to check all the walls and you want to make sure, not so much a pH, I should say moisture meter. You want to make sure that all the walls are within your standard so there's not too much moisture. where you don't want to run into where you're working on the project and the one wall you forgot to check the moisture on has had previous water damage. And now you have to either excrete the moisture or you need to tear it down and replace brick and mortar because it's just, you know, it's missing a membrane. It's a 19 whatever 60s house. So you want to check the moisture. all around the entire buildings and that's where a lot of painters will skip this step because this is more of a We're not masons by I mean my partner we combine everything with masonry and masons but at the same time most companies are just painters and They seldom forget to track all the moisture because at the end it has to cure into the brick if the brick is too moist then this will turn into liquid at that point. It doesn't have the ability to crystallize. So we need to make sure that all the walls are dry or we need to remedy any situation to get it to a dry level before we begin to work to answer your question. Quick question, follow up on two follow ups there. Limewash, when they recommend you actually dampen the wall. before you apply the lime wash. Like those are on the instructions. Okay, so lime wash is different. You actually want damp walls for the lime wash. And then too, you said with the sole silicate, you want to check to see, you know, with the spray bottle to see if it absorbs into the water, see if there's any other coatings. I thought that sole silicate could go directly over coated brick or even previously painted brick. Is this about whether you're deciding whether to put a primer on first? What's that test for?

Austin Tunnell

Yes, so we're going to be one of the few that are really, really harsh on using a primer. So when you use a acrylic primer or a silica primer, it's like an actual layer of glue. Right. And I also mentioned that like our primer is going to make the mortar and brick a little bit stronger. But I have that school of thought. There's guys that have way more experience that have been painting interior, but I'm not a proponent of this two for one paint and primer. Primer should be separate followed by paint. And I've asked even my chemist 14, 15 times in different sequences. His school thought as well is if you want proper adhesion, if you want the longevity, use the primer. So I'm a big proponent in primer. To answer your question, if the building is beautiful and if you have a couple areas where you need to remove some existing older paint, yes, figuratively, you could do the sole silicon without doing any primer. If I'm building a house and just laying, literally we lay brick, uncoded brick with mortar, and then we're painting it because there's a lot of people in new construction, do you need the primer or can you put sole silicate? Are you saying, yeah, can technically put sole silicate directly on it, but you would still recommend a primer first for longevity and durability? I would tell you this, if you skip the primer, say you get 15, 20 years, if you do the primer, say you could get an extra ton 15 or more years out of it, I'll take the latter and do the extra step. If you're wanting to just not do it, the sole silicate will still bind to that product, but it's gonna give you, the primer's gonna give it that extra of a glue, if you will, that extra adhesion. So I would go with the primer. And then number two, I didn't get to this, If, I'm adding on to two products next year for this reason, because you know, I get to learn a lot doing our own service work. If there's mildew or algae that's existing, we do have a product where I coat it and leave it for 24 hours and it completely eliminates any germs like mildew, algae before we apply anything, because you can't stain a part where there's no downspout and it's just filled with mildew and algae for instance. So you got to wash it down properly and

Austin Tunnell

typically a water and soap, you know, you could power wash the house or soft wash. But I'm gonna, for us particular on our service side, I'm actually adding a cleaner that's pH nine alkaline. And what's cool about it is you could actually go over windows, because a lot of cleaners that are strictly for masonry, kind of like our products, you can't get any of the silicates on windows, because you're gonna actually cause what's known as esching. So like behind me, it would be glass on top of a glass and you don't want that. Like you could literally ruin your glass. So I'm going to be bringing a cleaner that even if you get some on the windows, it's no big deal. And then you wash it off after 15 minutes. So the reason I'm saying this is let's say you guys come in and you do masonry and you happen to use like a pH five or six to clean the brick. Sometimes I may need to neutralize that brick before I stain it. Interesting. Does that make sense? So it's We don't actually clean our brick, but this is good to know because I mean, there are people in new construction that want to paint and that's going to be different because you've got basically clean brick with just some mortar on it where it sounds like, if I'm hearing right, you make sure it's dry and then you could apply your primer and then the sole silicate. Now, if you've got an older building that's been around 10, 20, 50, 100 years, you're going to have mildew and mold and stains and things like that where you're going to dirt and even stuff too where you're going to want to clean it first. Okay. Yeah. And then we do it kind of the same way you guys do. Like my masons, they do water and soap. If they have to use an acid, it's like last kind of ordeal. But then we run into projects where, I mean, they strip the coloring off of brick because the acid is so harsh. So if the mason doesn't know what he's doing, I mean, you could strip the color and we've seen it. So we do water and soap unless we've got to use muriatic acid. don't use it all that often and we don't have any issues with that fluorescence or anything, side topic, but we run into projects where they've used, listen, another thing, they use a pH five or six product and they forget to wash it off, for instance, and then now it goes into the brick and it's been there for a week or two, now you have entrapment and now you gotta neutralize the brick at this point before you stain it. So that's where we do certain testings before we apply it, but Sol Silicate.

Austin Tunnell

I think you'll get away if you put it on existing paint. It's just not going to be as strong as using like an acrylic primer even. Best primer is best best practice is to use a primer first. And you know, some of this might sound intimidating to homeowners being like, oh my gosh, you need to do all these things. Well, the truth is, if you've got an older house that's existing and you're coming, having someone to come paint it, you need to do this anyway. because painters will just come and paint over it. Like, and I'm not even talking about sole silica or potassium mineral stains. And your paint job is not going to last. That's really what makes the difference between good painters and not good painters. Well, besides just, you know, if they tape off things correctly and all that. But to your point is whether they prep correctly. The huge thing about paint is prep. And this is just part of the prep that you really should be doing no matter what. But I will say, you know, because it does sound kind of, I guess you could say intimidating. And you guys install it a lot. Like how would you recommend we or someone else kind of talk to our painters? Are you recommending painters do all of this? They prep it, they clean it, they paint it because not all, you you're not in Oklahoma, for example, or everywhere where people are listening to this. Yeah. So I wear two hats, right? My other company, Midwest Brickstand in Chicago, folks call me for service side and I'm always very transparent. I let them know that I manufacture my own product on the mineral stain side. if say we're over budget or there's something I always offer, listen, you could buy the product and be a weekend warrior if you want to do it yourself, right? But I'll tell you one thing, my service guys, Anna Gale, she does beautiful mural work by the way. There's no issues because we went through a lot of tribulations and learning the temperatures and everything. But I will tell you, that homeowners really take this to heart and they read the instructions. And I seldom have less issues with DIY folks than painters. Because a painter that's been painting using latex acrylic, they know everything about everything, doing it for 30 years, but they also have bad habits. And they're used to just, okay, I'm gonna roll, come back 15 minutes later and do touch-ups. Can't do that. So if you go to my how-to section, I clearly spell it out.

Austin Tunnell

make sure to tooth it in. when you stop at the mortar, leave it. Don't touch it. If you come back 15 minutes later and go over it again, it's going to lighten. Silicits work opposite to paints. And I will tell you that the least issues I have with is actually with homeowners that buy direct and they do their own installations. They literally go through instructions and I will spend 45 minutes if I need to with them on the phone and I'll walk them through it step by step. I'll tell them the rollers and it works out. most of the times to be honest with you. So the DIY folks really take it seriously and it's not as hard as it seems. At this point, you all know that Sierra Pacific Windows and OneSource Windows and Doors sponsors the podcast, but I want to take a moment to tell you about why we use them at Building Culture and why I personally love their product. Take their H3 casement series, which is probably the line we use the most. It's their entry level aluminum clad window. And what's so cool about it is it has a ton of options. It has something like 27 different colors you can get, maybe it's more at this point. And also you got all sorts of different Muntin profiles that in a lot of other entry level series, you're only gonna get five or six colors and you're gonna only have like maybe one profile that you can get, say an OG profile. Sometimes we use OG profile, but what I really love, our favorite, my personal favorite window that we use absolutely the most is with a 5.8. putty profile and this all sounds very nerdy, but if you're an architecture, you're a builder, you're redoing your home, this is really important stuff. And I love the five eights putty because it's narrow, but it's got these clean lines compared to an OG profile. So it feels both historic because it is a historic profile, but it also feels kind of modern. So it can hit that really nice transitional style and vibe also as a really like thin frame. And so it's just a really nice, window that I feel it feels sleek. It feels a little bit modern, but it also feels historic and classic. And so that's why we use them. And if you see our Pacific distributes all over the country and then if you are in the state of Oklahoma, one source windows and doors is who we source our Sierra Pacific through. So check them out. Got the links in the show notes back to the show. I know some homeowners listen to this, but then we also have.

Austin Tunnell

builders, architects and developers listening to this. And of course we are builders and developers, so we're not DIYing our stuff. We've got a project coming up. I mean, not too soon, but I'm hoping to basically build some more market rate townhouses. There'll be conventional wood frame townhouses with brick veneer with our nice details, but very simple and to differentiate the houses, painting them all nice different colors with a sole silicate. What would you recommend to us for applying all this to new construction? Is it just really go over it with your paint crew very in detail or what do you recommend there? So, yeah, we would definitely, myself most likely would be the one who will facilitate the questions, but by all means I would go over, this is what I usually go over. What months, what temperatures, What sides is the building faced? How much sun are you getting on East versus West? And then I basically walk you through the entire steps. Or my partner, for instance, is the other. But that's really the most important thing. Like we've had a union company do a work for us. They did a hotel, a very dark color, almost like a black. And the darker you go, you see everything. And you have to be very meticulous. And it's not a hard product to use. But here's the thing. When I use like another meter that tells me what the heat index is on the brick. And if that some beams on it, even if it's 80 degrees, by the time it's like two or three o'clock in the afternoon, that brick is like 120 degrees. And as soon as you put my product on or any potassium silicate, it starts to bake and it could actually get lighter. So there's limitations where I don't. My product, I don't want to go past 87 degrees. I think Kine has theirs up to 95 and Permatint up to 100. I don't think that's safe. I'm going off what my chemist also has done testing on and we stretched it as much as we can. So I'm between 40 degrees and 87 degrees. So what I would say is in a nutshell, you start the project, I would start, let's say the West Wing is in a shade.

Austin Tunnell

I would literally do it all the way around until, you're working against the sun. Or if you have a wall where you're going to be in the sun regardless, I would pick like a temperature and a timeframe that's maybe seven, eight o'clock in the morning. And then it gives you time to go over the wall because what happened on that particular project was one guy did this side, the other guy did this side, but there was two different temperatures. And because they've also never used the products, we were able to see where the roller marks are too. So that's another school of thought is when we do like a 1500 square foot home, I tell people like, if you have a brick that has a lot of, that's going to give you a lot of wear and tear on your roller. My guys literally use about five or six rollers on the little ranch property because you want to remain with the same consistency. And if that roller is used throughout the whole house, it's not going to be in the same shape. even if you use like a Purdy, the nappiest roller you could get, you're going to wear it down. And so like you got to switch out your rollers too. And if say you're using two or three rollers, the other thing that's really important is person A goes left to right and somebody behind them is just back rolling for that even consistency. So, and that's why we call these products more like a stain in the paint because it absorbs into the brick, but you got to make sure that you're really fluid with how you use it. And I don't want to make it sound too intimidating, but it's not a product where you could just come back 30 minutes later and do touch-ups. It's gonna dry quicker, but it also cures on the inside much slower. But what you see on the outside is you wanna basically not touch it after like 10 or 15 minutes. So that's really the biggest hurdle of it. Got it. Yeah, that's interesting. So in a hot place like Oklahoma, are you kind of saying you shouldn't? apply this anytime they're in the summer? No, you can. But if it gets past like two or three o'clock and it really starts to beam, I would do I would do a cut off like union guys in Chicago actually have good hours because they start from six to two. They're done by two. That's how I would approach it. Like until I went to Montana. So you don't have to have 24 hours or 48 hours without it getting really hot. It's just while you're applying it.

Austin Tunnell

That's right. Okay. That makes it a lot easier. So even if you get to like a hundred degrees, but then the next morning it's down to 68 again, you're fine. It's just don't stain when it's like 95 degrees and the sun is beaming on the wall. because then the product is, is not able to cure properly. That that's all it is. So like, yeah, you Phoenix, is like mortar too. mean, you're not, yeah. I mean, there's all sorts of things like that, even though it sounds a little bit more intimidating. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So once you figure out the time frame and how it works, by all means, summertime, those are usually the best hours. And then if you have a wall that's in a shade, and if you want to work longer, and that's where my guys or gals will do three to six o'clock, for instance, they'll pick a wall that is accessible. And even though if it's like 85, 87 degrees, it's in a shade. And that sun, there's a lot of damage. You don't think about it, but that brick could literally be a difference of 40 degrees. If you check the temperature, so it comes down to chemistry as all, you know, it's, it's, it's a inorganic, but in this case, it's a natural product that you're trying to absorb into the brick surface. If the brick is too hot, you're basically almost like burning it, if you will, in a nutshell. Makes sense. And I mean, I think it is important to keep in mind, there might be some nuances here about installing, but you're also installing a product that can last 40, 50. plus years, you know, which is incredibly different than just kind of regular paint. What about cold? Like so wintertime, what are the limitations about applying this in the cold? So my first year when I got started, we tarped in two days before Christmas and it was crazy because we we took a little torch. You could actually heat up the brick from afar, not not burning it. And then last year we went through almost Thanksgiving on a commercial project. So I don't want to go past 40 degrees or lower. You end up using more product, it cures slower. And then two, you want to make sure overnight that there isn't freezing temperatures. Because a lot of mistakes will happen where you think that the brick is at a positive temperature the next morning at 930.

Austin Tunnell

but then if you check the temperature, it's still 28 degrees for instance. So my rule of thumb is 40 to 42 degrees, but to also ensure that overnight, if you deal with frozen temperatures, you almost wanna start at like 11 or 12 in the afternoon. You wanna make sure that the brick's warmed up enough, Yeah, that the brick is warmed up, but as long as it's over 32 degrees per se, you're good. The only problem is if you So 32 to 95 is, know, ideal. conditions above 32 and below 95? I mean I'm 32 to 87. Kind of more 32 to 95. Yeah and anybody that goes to 100 degrees I don't know how they're testing their products but I wouldn't apply it at 100 degrees so it's a little bit too hot. And you've mentioned rolling on now you can spray it on right? Yes. Okay. And what do you recommend? Why would you choose one over the other? Yeah. Which one's easier? Yes, so I just did a video like my how to section. do this also for painters and DIYers. I get asked all the time, what sprayer can I use? Anything from a Wagner to a larger. And you need a minimum of 2900 PSI if you spray. And Greco has a lot of sprayers from a GX21 to a 395. My minimum that we came up with is a Greco 595 or higher. So two trains of thought. So I get asked, what about this one that's $1,500? I'm like, yeah, you could use it, but how many gallons per minute does it pump out? Because my product at some point is going to turn hard too within the hose and the tip. So you're running a chance of clogging it up. So for that reason, we do a minimum of $5.95 or higher. Our mutual friend that we talked about also in Oklahoma, they actually use a smaller and they were successful on the smaller project. However, if you do four or five thousand square foot project, a smaller machine is going to end up clogging over time, even if it's got the right PSI, because it's also not dispensing the amount of gallons per minute that a larger sprayer will. So a rule of thumb is a 595, which has about a one and a half horsepower. The smaller sprayers are about a third to a half a horsepower, just to paint the picture.

Austin Tunnell

And so, but from kind of like a builder developer architect perspective, which one am I going to spec? Am I going to say, I want you to roll this or I want you to spray this. Like what's the difference? Is one easier? Is one less more dummy proof? Do they look different? Do they better? A sprayer is going to give you a very natural look. I'm not going to lie, but I hate you. I'm not a spray guy. So I do the brush and roller. I'm a traditionalist. I prefer that method. If you get a certain brick, That you want a certain look a sprayer is gonna really be more seamless But then you want to have the right sprayer and and I tell people If you're not gonna use that sprayer a lot and you really need to spray just get a rental for a week Okay, you know because that's the things like you don't want to buy a three to four thousand dollar sprayer just to spray your house once it's not it doesn't make sense at that point so but me personally, I love the role and and and just regular regular hand brush and That's all I use. So we have two guys that use the, we have a Greco 695 that we use twice a year. So we roll. With the primer that you have to install, say on a sole silicate or ideally install, you've mentioned acrylic and silica. Those are both products you have and which one do you recommend there? So I will have an acrylic. I do have it, but it's going to be more for next year. My my water glass primer, do, and it's literally like water liquid. You could actually buy a garden sprayer, cheap $30, $40 HDX at Home Depot with the pressure, the manual pressure, and you could literally spray using that. It's very easy. So, um, can you get that on a window or do you really have to, mean, not, you want to, you want to prep windows because it's still water glass. But if you prep everything, one person, if they spray, If they don't over spray and they do it right, you could probably do three, 4,000 square feet in a day using that. The primer is going to be really quickly. mean, you're just going up and down and it's literally like you're spraying water. And then the sole silicate, is it a one coat system or a two coat system? So here's the thing. Technically you could get away with one coat, but for durability, longevity, I always do two coats. However, if you do a transparency,

Austin Tunnell

You're probably going to do one coat because every time you go over it, it's going to turn a little bit more solid, a little bit more solid. Exactly. So in this case, you would do one coat if you were to do a transparency, which in German it's termed LASER, L-A-S-U-R. And that means like a transparency. well, it's very, by the way, I just got to kind of give a shout out to you and Mineral Stains because we've ordered from Kime before. I think it's a great product. but they're also a big company and you don't exactly get to talk to the owner and get to talk about like, maybe there's a few instructions on there, but I just learned a lot from you. And I know you're very responsive to whether emails or calls to, to, to, to scribe to people and help them use the product. So I kind of, I, I, I prefer working with local small business owners whenever I can. And so just for everyone listening, have not ordered from Matt yet. But next time we do a potassium silicate or a lime wash, we definitely will be ordering from Matt and I'll update you that on how that goes. So to kind of end with, we started with the exterior. Let's talk about the interior now. Because I think that's really cool for people. Once again, people are looking for these more natural finishes. They're looking for like kind of this deeper, richer color. They're looking for healthier and sustainable things. And so yeah, these things are options for actually going over. Drywall not just you know plaster veneer or something. So can you talk walk us through the products for the interior? Yep, what and how so? we have other paints, but I'll just give you an example because they're they're made with the same pigment so Say you're doing even like a black color, right? And then here's a regular paint You have a little bit of a sheen and then you have like a matte and you're going for like a matte look whether it's a beige you know, burgundy, peach, yellow, whatever the wall is, there's no way that you're gonna be able to attain something like this. like my wall behind me has a little bit of like a cement texture. I personally like it. Some may want like a smooth finish. I chose to go with a little bit of a feeling to the wall. It gives me like a little bit more girth, if you will.

Austin Tunnell

And I love it, you know, and almost as like a plaster veneer, you know what I mean? We're just get a little bit of that texture on it. Yeah. And actually just, just, just to bring up kind really quickly. Cause I did hear, well, I think the president actually talked about it when he started working with them, like 20 years ago, he said the same thing. The first time I got to see, a silicate, wherever I cut the. the drywall. goes, when I saw it on a drywall, he goes, I could not believe how vibrant and rich the colors are. And that's what it really is. Cause like, if you show like a black, mean, black is black, but if you do like, like a, like a red, like a burgundy, you're like, my God, it's like, just like depth. It's got depth, right? It's like you go to Italy or, or like older Europe and you see that stucco, like an orange or whatever you're like, Holy cow. I mean, it just works like natural. that's, and that you cannot replicate that. by using organic pigments, not inorganic. And that's the difference is if you're going for that look, that's the way to go. Even my kitchen is got a silicate, but the only thing I also say is it's gonna have a little bit of a limitation if the kids start throwing things around because it's not going to be as scrub proof. And that goes for any paint. Any paint that doesn't have a sheen on it, even latex acrylic, will not be able to withstand, you know, the 15,000 scrubs that you could do on these surfaces. that's really the only limitation, but as far as like not smelling, being eco-friendly, mean, that's as, that's as best as you could get. It's like replacing drywall with, with, with hemp creep, for instance, you know, I mean, it's, it's going to be very eco-friendly if you will. So, right. So if you installed say new drywall, new construction, would you just put the. um, silica primer on and then a coat of sole silicate and two coats of sole silicate with a roller. So if you have an original pry, excuse me, drywall and it's like an, an on, on, on, on painted surface, you could use either or at that point, you, I mean, you could use the masonry stain or you could use a sole silicate. I would probably still need to primer it. Austin Tunnell (01:00:57.407) I mean, I always will prime your if you skip the primer, so two things will happen if you skip the primer, especially when you go again with a, I keep showing you black because I can't tell you how many black gallons I sold this year. It's been like a record year, an extra year, which, you But when you go with the darker color, keep in mind drywall, I mean, it's not an EFIS or a stucco. But remember it's a masonry surface. this part of the drywall drinks more or less than this side, you're going to get variations. So you want that primer to cure, soak in, and then give you a level of comfort where, you know, you're not getting two shades of, in this case, black. And now you're like, my God, it's like, it doesn't, it doesn't go basically. So what you're doing is that that primer is also going to prevent you from additional, coats in paint and it's also going to strengthen it. So that's how you want to think about it too. Because if you go darker, even on the exterior, there is a potential of having streaks like on, for instance, a stucco. again, one side that's been beamed that gets sunshine 12 hours a day versus this one, there could be two different walls at this point, 10 years later. And you want to think about that. So the primer also prevents streaks as well. So it's not only a partner and a bond mechanism, it's also to prevent the actual streaks. So it gives you uniformity, if you will. Like that aligns. When you're actually applying the sole silicate, you've primed it. Would you then kind of paint it just like you would paint it otherwise? You'd cut them with a brush, your round stuff, then roll? Exactly the same thing. Same thing. thing. and brush them. When I was looking at lime wash and clay plasters, obviously, very beautiful, trowel finished, but also have the same issue of not like scrubbable like an egg shell wall, which most people using latex paint will use a flat ceiling, an egg shell wall, so it's got a little bit of cleanability to it. Can you use, I think they used like an olive oil soap that they applied to the plaster that kind of gave it more cleanability. Is that possible with the potassium silicate? Austin Tunnell (01:03:22.527) I mean, if I take regular damn cloth with soap, like my kitchen, my wife is graded, like just, you know, even by the garbage, like you'll see a couple stains here and there and I like to wipe them off. It's not that big of a deal. It really is more of a deal when maybe you deal with like a tomato stain, if you will, and it's a little bit harsher, but like a regular grease here and there, I mean, you can wipe off, but. It's never going to give you like, like, like, like, for instance, we, you know, we don't have it on our site, but we have also our interior hospital grade photocatalytic paints. And this you can scrub 15,000, 12 to 15,000 times. You'll never get that same approach, but also it'll never be as natural as a silicate. So it's kind of a, you got to pick your point. Now, I mean, you could also put a sealer over if you really want. And that's actually the olive oil soap wasn't to clean it. It's actually a sealer they're putting over like a natural sealer. Yeah. I've never seen that. I'm sure you've not. Look, I suppose you could put any type of sealer that's natural. mean, like, look how many things you could use with like beeswax, for instance, as a natural, you know, I'm sure there's ways to put over it. And it depends how messy the kitchen gets. If it's not too bad, I think it should be fine. Right. Yeah. And we're talking about messy areas, like other rooms and stuff like that. People use plaster and stuff all the time. And that's making a big comeback in limewater. So this isn't unusual. It's just, it's just something to be aware of. I mean, think about this there in California, I've seen products where they literally apply it to drywall in the shower room. You would never think of them. They put a sealer over the line and I'm like, my gosh, how's the water not getting in? And you have to reapply those sewers. But I mean, I've seen bathrooms on the West Coast where I'm like, wow, they have lime all the way throughout the actual bathroom, which I find fascinating. you got to put the Tadalact plaster, like the Moroccan plaster. That's my, the Tadalact shower enclosure is like, if I could paint, every shower in Tadalact, I would. But it's extremely expensive and. Austin Tunnell (01:05:38.677) you really have to do it right or it is going to leak because you're going to get a little hairline cracks and stuff. But anyway, I absolutely love Tadalact. It's one of the most beautiful finishes. One more practical question, kind of from a builder perspective. You've painted the house interior. You know, then we install lights and do all this other stuff. And then guess what? You know, things get beat up and we always have our painters come back and do, frankly, pretty substantial touch ups. And it's always more than I'd like. And frankly, sometimes ceilings just get, you a wall gets completely re rolled because it's really hard to cut in eggshell. Anyway, what is it like to touch up this stuff? depends on the shade and If it's a lighter color you may be able to get away to to two schools of thought here because if you have typically if you have leftovers and You tightly seal it with the tape and it's tight, know, the lids good you may get two to three years out of it Otherwise it literally starts turning into a rock right versus regular paint. It turns. It's like a plastic If you do it the right way, as I've done my kitchen before and I got away with it because I have like a technique of rolling it, you should be able to kind of disguise it. Now, if I, for instance, you call me like six years later and it's the same color, it's in the system, my white, which is my titanium dioxide base, is going to be probably a different batch. Because the way you want to think about it is my white is going to come from either parts of Scandinavia, Europe or whatever. It's mined. It's a white, but it's going to be most likely a little bit different. So, so that's how you want to think about it. That's true for like, all paints and like our touch-ups are immediate within a month. know what I mean? Where we get the electricians, we get the counter, whatever, all the finishing touches. And then we're coming back because people nicked a wall and the drywall and we're having to mud the drywall a little bit, you know, and touch-ups or we had to cut a hole or move a light. Austin Tunnell (01:07:50.037) when they're installing the lights. And so then you're having to patch the drywall and then roll over again. Once again, a lot of times, even with our paint, just because we go for a pretty high level of finish, we end up having to kind of roll the whole wall anyway. Is that probably pretty similar if you're using an eggshell or satin paint or is it a little bit harder to I've done suctions, but in some cases, I will just redo the whole wall, to be honest with you, just to make it all uniform. but there's ways of the way I kind of do like an X method with, with the roller and brush to make it a seamless, you may be able to get away where you could, you could barely, barely tell the difference. But in theory, if it's not a large wall, I would just read you the whole wall again, but you could get away with doing touch-ups. It depends on the installer and how they get used to the product too, is what I would say. Cool. So, Matt, How do people find your business, find your product, follow you guys, reach out, see pictures of what you're doing and what the end product looks like? Sure. So we're all over social media. If you want to see the service site, it's on Midwest Brookstain. The Mineral Stains is mineralstains.com. And you can find us also on Instagram, on Facebook, obviously on webpage. and YouTube, we get most traction on YouTube. like to do instructional videos and we like to do like before and after videos. So you could find us on mineral stains. I think it's one on YouTube and, and Midwest Brookstein is my service company in Chicago. So that's where we go through all the different, issues that we run into. it's, it comes firsthand. Well, very Cool, I'm glad to have you on and kind of like an expert talk people through these products because I really think they are amazing products, especially for exteriors and painting your masonry. I know you've got some other really cool products coming down the line, so I'll have to have you on again. Hopefully we'll have used some Sol Silicate. We get to talk about our experience and then you get to talk about the Portland quartz and polyurethane on the roof stuff that you're doing. I love that you're just like an inventor. Austin Tunnell (01:10:05.781) working in real time and have real experience out there doing stuff. I think that is super valuable. So really appreciate what you do and I will do my best to spread the word. Thank you. Thank you joining me Austin. Please like, subscribe and share with your friends. on, if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, please leave us a five star review and take a screenshot, send it to playbook at buildingculture.com. And when we reach a hundred reviews, I'm going to send out a 10 building culture hats, like up there behind my head. If you're watching video, and I'll send it to your house. Thanks so much for listening and catch you on the next episode.